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Democracy is inherently divisive, and saying you don't want somebody to hold a certain position is just as valid as saying you support someone - two sides of the same coin. I rather have this blatantly honest opinion than the writhing snakes you see on tv all day, who use their intelligence to say deadly things in a totally inoffensive way with a smile on their face.

Edited 2007-11-26 22:26

It's not a personal attack when the issues discussed relate directly and exclusively to his actions within the Gnome organization, regardless of whether people think the criticism is overly harsh.

Clearly the poster has very strong and passionate feelings, and regardless of the etiquette or lack thereof, he seems to have done a remarkable job of keeping the rant and criticism on topic.

Politics is not, has not, and never will be a clean business. But there is a clear line between attacking someone's credibility and competency as to how they performed their job versus attacking their credibility and competency through unrelated or personal issues in some sort of a smear campaign intended to draw attention away from the core issues. That's when things get really ugly.

As an only slightly interested bystander completely unfamiliar with either the issues or the personalities involved, I don't see that the line was crossed.

That's when things get really ugly.

To be honest, I don't see how things can actually get much uglier given that Cumming's post started off with calling Waugh a "psychotic failure". I'm shocked.

It's just a blog, and in the free software community we air our dirty laundry in public for good reason. It's better if people say what they really think instead of self-imposing some contrived rules for diplomatic discourse. The court of public opinion will distinguish the lunatic fringes from the mainstream consensus.

It's a shame that the politics of free software has sullied the reputations of a not-so-big handful of community members. But there are personality traits that tend to culminate in this sort of public retribution, and they're not necessarily unique to free software projects. People with "sharp elbows" rise and fall quickly in any organization, even when their agenda has undeniable merit.

The word "poisonous" reminds me of a presentation at Google by the leaders of the Subversion project on dealing with poisonous personalities in free software projects. These people aren't necessarily "evil", and they could certain have the best of intentions. But as good as their work may be, if they cause problems for other contributors, the project suffers.

I'm unfamiliar with this situation, and I'm in no position to comment on Jeff's conduct in particular. That is for those who have worked and dealt with him to discuss. All I'm saying is that there are such things as "poisonous" contributors, and they can often be amongst the most active and well-intentioned members of the community. But they make working on the project less enjoyable and cause people to quit.

Not everybody is a Linus or even a Theo that has the capacity to lay the smack-down when necessary without jeopardizing the effectiveness of their leadership or the health of the community. When some people assert their authority, they do so in a way that causes others to push back and ultimately unite against them. Then they ought to step aside and let the project find its own way. Sometimes the best thing you can do for somebody or something you love is to let go.

Whether or not it has really come to this for Jeff Waugh and the GNOME project is for those parties to decide.

Edited 2007-11-27 00:52

Perhaps you were modded down for insulting middle school kids?

:D


Seriously, Murray could have written something less abusive and more factual. Examples and explanations are generally more effective at convincing people while harsh words are more effective at inciting people.

Reading what Murray wrote almost makes me want to vote the other way!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Waugh

"At OSCON in 2005, Waugh won "Best Evangelist" in the Google-O'Reilly Open Source Awards for his evangelism of Ubuntu and GNOME."

Couldn't have put it better myself. IMO Gnome has a lot to answer for - for the lack of Linux uptake, just take a look at all the complaints on Ubuntu's forums, conservatively 75% of them relate to Gnome. Then look at the wish lists for every new Ubuntu release and 80% of the requests relate to Gnome in one fashion or another.

The project needs new blood and new direction if it wants any chance at surviving the next few years as KDE 4 moves forward. And No, that stupid Online desktop bullshit isn't gunna cut it I'm afraid, that's my honest opinion anyway.

To the average user, Gnome IS Ubuntu. That's all they see - it's everywhere. Hence, it should not be surprising that complaints and feature requests center around Gnome.

[EDIT - improve spacing for readability]

Edited 2007-11-27 15:09

To the average user, Gnome IS Ubuntu. That's all they see - it's everywhere. Hence, it should not be surprising that complaints and feature requests center around Gnome.

Yes, but have a look at what those complaints and feature requests are. They tend to cover an awful lot of old ground, but they keep coming back.

You also have to keep in mind the audience that Ubuntu grabs. A lot of the feature requests and complaints are about gnome not being more like windows. Gnome isn't windows and isn't really trying to be. It has stricter HIG guidelines than any DE I know, and they are pretty adamant about adhering to it.

This whole thing about how Ubuntu should use KDE4 because (insert whatever lame excuse here) is stupid. Ubuntu rise to popularity has a lot to do with gnome and for Ubuntu to abandon that would be foolish. By all means Kubuntu should have KDE4.

I do wish that gnome were more forward thinking and future friendly but a lot of that has to be blamed on the underlying technologies that gnome has used that are now either obsolete or extremely in need of deprecation. KDE4 will ensure that the gnome devs get that nice big kick in the ass to make sure they can keep up.

Couldn't have put it better myself. IMO Gnome has a lot to answer for - for the lack of Linux uptake, just take a look at all the complaints on Ubuntu's forums, conservatively 75% of them relate to Gnome. Then look at the wish lists for every new Ubuntu release and 80% of the requests relate to Gnome in one fashion or another.

First of all I would love to know where you pulled those numbers from, thin air or your ass? Second, it's no wonder that most Ubuntu users have complaints against GNOME after all it is THE user interface in Ubuntu. Even if it is really a backend problem, a library problem, or even a kernel issue it's going to manifest itself in the GUI for most Ubuntu users. No offense to their users but there is probably a larger proportion of newbs using Ubuntu than any other distro. That's what usually happens when you're the most popular distro.

The project needs new blood and new direction if it wants any chance at surviving the next few years as KDE 4 moves forward. And No, that stupid Online desktop bullshit isn't gunna cut it I'm afraid, that's my honest opinion anyway.

I'm a little biased here because I use GNOME everyday but I guess that illustrates my next point. GNOME is very usable today, for everyday use. What exactly is wrong with it? As far as the desktop paradigm goes it pretty much does what all the others do. It has its quirks but so does KDE, Windows, and OSX. I don't think any of them are really that much more capable than the others, just different. I prefer the GNOME way of doing things and no whiz-bang desktop interface is going to sway me. At this point it's going to take a UI paradigm shift for me to switch desktops, something like lowfat.

Didn't realize this turned into a Gnome bashing post. Clearly the two bashers are using Linux or BSD because they talk about KDE. Our F/OSS community is one of freedom. Ignorant rants like desktop bashing only serve to perpetuate internal division in the F/OSS community. My point is, use whatever desktop environment or window manager you want to because YOU CAN, and keep your rants to yourself.

One of Linus' phrases adequately sums up how I feel: "Gnome just doesn't interest me very much."

Yet, we always see you trolling in GNOME topics, actually, we see you more in GNOME than in KDE topics. I can't image what will you do if some way you felt interested.

Yet, we always see you trolling in GNOME topics, actually, we see you more in GNOME than in KDE topics. I can't image what will you do if some way you felt interested.

Do I really? Feel free to have a look through the comment history. I very rarely comment on Gnome related articles themselves. That should tell a story in itself ;-). About the only one where I have really commented is on OOXML, and that's because it's about OOXML really. It's not about Gnome specifically.

I'm not entirely sure what it is that you do sweetheart.

Yes, you do!



Google gives 3450 results for "+segedunum +gnome +site:www.osnews.com". That's an awful lot of comments for something which "doesn't interest you very much".

There are an additional 177 hits for the same search at dot.kde.org. So segedunum spends a lot of time discussing GNOME at the dot as well.

If you think that +segedunum +gnome +site:www.osnews.com is going to tell you how many times he has commented on Gnome then you need to stop and think.

I have made about 200 comments on the site in total. Using your technique Google returns 557 results. Yet very few of my comments have anything to do with Gnome.

Yes, you do!

When there is a new release of Gnome, or something else Gnome related posted, you will not hear me coming in and saying 'Gnome suckz'. However, I do hear plenty of words like clutter, simplicity and 'ordinary users' flying around.

Yes, I have had a bit of a go at Novell, Mono and Gnome at times because I have some issues with some of the things they've done and how they've gone about doing them - and I've explained them. I also don't take kindly to people telling me that they're the greatest thing since sliced bread and that they're taking over the world when they're not.

However, Novell != Mono != Gnome as Jeff Waugh has explained somewhere.

But, you know what? As much as I have some problems with it, I'd have the Mono framework as a part of Gnome tomorrow, because it's the only thing that will get developers developing and get the desktop moving.

Google gives 3450 results for "+segedunum +gnome +site:www.osnews.com". That's an awful lot of comments for something which "doesn't interest you very much".

I'm not going to verify it (and let's say for the sake of argument that it's true ;-) - you don't Google very well), but you know what sweetheart? I suggest you have a look at some of the search results, look at the actual topic subjects and then look at who, or rather what, posted first. The truth might enlighten you ;-).

I'm merely one person who is simply not pleased (not chuffed at all actually) about the bollocks that has been talked about free desktops and desktop Linux consistently for several years now as I've tried to go about using it. "Oh, this desktop is the default, we're going to capture 10% of the desktop market by 2010, we're going to create a WinFS replacement, we're creating a mobile platform, people want to develop software for nothing" etc. etc. and so on and so forth. You know what? It's 2007 (end of) and I don't see any of those things happening.

All of that stuff has come from one general direction, which neatly dovetails with this article, because you can see where that general direction is - and no, it's certainly not from one person ;-).

Edited 2007-11-27 22:51

KDE just doesn't interest me very much.